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To the devs
posté December 18, 2012, 09:48:49 | #1
To the devs You made a nice game in krosmaster arena but you made certain dolls to over powered like makum bah. For starters she can summon the sac doll which rarely does under 4 hp of damage, second she can fully heal herself every turn on top of having 13 hp making her virtually impossible to kill!

I've a some suggestions that would balance her out. One raise the ap cost of the sacrificial doll seed to 5 so she can only cast one per turn even with the ap boost from ally, two change it so she can only cast the sylvan power to no more than once a match, or make it so only one can be used per team and she can only use the sylvan power once per match

The way she is now people are abusing her high hp, ability to fully heal herself and summon the sacrificial doll


posté December 18, 2012, 10:07:40 | #2
They not OP.
1.Now,when all abuse sadi-I have anti-sadi team,my team got 90% wins vs sadi.My team have not eni,I dont need it.
2.Any team with 10+dmg per turn can win vs sadi.


posté December 20, 2012, 05:36:50 | #3

Quote (S48GSII @ 18 December 2012 10:07) *
They not OP.
1.Now,when all abuse sadi-I have anti-sadi team,my team got 90% wins vs sadi.My team have not eni,I dont need it.
2.Any team with 10+dmg per turn can win vs sadi.
For her level makum bah is indeed over powered. The only other dolls that can heal themselves and has nearly as much hp as she does that I'm aware of is ally mczeal, and oscar kass. There may be more but I don't have many figurines at the moment so I do not know.

Worse yet is she can summon the sacrificial doll and fully heal any damage done to her making her independent of an eni! That's over powered no matter what your win percentage is against a team of four sadidas.

For that doll to not be over powered ankama would have to change the ap cost of the sac doll or sylvan power, change how much hp the sylvan power heals, limit it's use to once a match, or remove it completely!

Your win percentage against a team of four sadidas is not representative of the ability of all the players of krosmaster arena to win against said team. Which means it can't be used as an argument to show the doll not being over powered.

What can be are the facts makum bah for her level can in fact be the only attacking char on some ones team and they could still win due to her not needing the attention of an eni for healing, being able to summon a doll that almost always does 4 damage per attack, and her high hp which allows her to take damage only to be able to heal it all every turn!!

Any team no matter what their total damage output should be able to win versus any team with any combination of makum bah, ally mczeal, and klor ofil. Having to tailor your team in order to be able to win versus makum bah and whatever teammates she may have shows that she is over powered.


posté December 20, 2012, 11:30:13 | #4
I personally do not think Makum Bah is overpowered, mainly due to the fact the sac dolls can be easily avoided, Makum is certainly very durable and it for that very reason any decent player would just focus on one of the other figurines, while trying to limit Makum movement and ability to sac doll spam. I personally get alot more worried when I see 2 klor ofils in the opposing team, as they really can shut 1-2 of your figurines down.

The real OP figurine is Nox, it is extremely hard to avoid him from taking any lower HP figurines down, while his AP removal renders many lower lvl classes unable to use spells at all, that coupled with his armour makes it nearly impossible to stop him rolling on and taking out 1-2 opponents, after that the game is decided.


posté December 21, 2012, 08:12:49 | #5

Quote (magulsreturn @ 20 December 2012 11:30) *
I personally do not think Makum Bah is overpowered, mainly due to the fact the sac dolls can be easily avoided, Makum is certainly very durable and it for that very reason any decent player would just focus on one of the other figurines, while trying to limit Makum movement and ability to sac doll spam. I personally get alot more worried when I see 2 klor ofils in the opposing team, as they really can shut 1-2 of your figurines down.

The real OP figurine is Nox, it is extremely hard to avoid him from taking any lower HP figurines down, while his AP removal renders many lower lvl classes unable to use spells at all, that coupled with his armour makes it nearly impossible to stop him rolling on and taking out 1-2 opponents, after that the game is decided.
Yes Nox is surely powerful but klor ofil while being decent is less of a threat than makum bah. For starters she only has around 7-8 hp and can't heal herself. Second the madoll only takes away 1 ap and mp making it an annoyance. The sacrificial doll is much more of a threat because two can halve a figures hp any of them with 8 hp!

So when it comes down to it makum bah is more dangerous than klor ofil hands down. Me I love seeing klor ofil on the opposing team I don't even worry about it. But when I see two makum bahs then my arse starts to pucker. Sure the sac doll only has 2mp but the damage it does makes up for that so it doesn't need the mobility of the madoll.

In the end I'd rather face two madoll summoning klor ofils than two sac doll summoning makum bahs which translates to four if the opponent has two makum bahs and ally for their team! Four sac dolls doing anywhere from 2 hp which is the lowest I've seen them do to 4hp means death to all figures or near death should the figure have 10hp or more!

So yes makum bah is over powered since she can summon two sac dolls with the ap received from ally, heal damage done to her with out an eni, and has 13 hp making it extremely hard to knock her out of the game with out rolling two crits with every figurine you attack with!!


posté December 21, 2012, 11:10:06 | #6
A 2 Makum Bah + Ally Team will always lose to a 2 Klor ofil with whatever adds team. Makum Bah doesnt have the mobility to do their damage to Klor ofil teams. Especially because they have both to stick with ally to get the ap, restricting their mobility even more

You can just go collect coins and win while they hardly move cause of your mp rape


posté December 22, 2012, 01:45:09 | #7

Quote (Chrolo @ 21 December 2012 11:10) *
A 2 Makum Bah + Ally Team will always lose to a 2 Klor ofil with whatever adds team. Makum Bah doesnt have the mobility to do their damage to Klor ofil teams. Especially because they have both to stick with ally to get the ap, restricting their mobility even more

You can just go collect coins and win while they hardly move cause of your mp rape
Actually klor ofil only has 1 more mp than makum bah. She and ally both have 3mp so their mobility isn't that restricted. Assuming each makum bah is targeted by a madoll that's only one mp lost. Not much if klor ofil is in range of three squares!

So a move of two and klor ofil is in attack range. Not only that klor ofil is weak to fire damage which the sac doll does so it'll hit hard when it goes boom! Then there's the fact all the madoll does is take 1 ap and 1 mp making it an annoyance only.

Klor ofil also only has 7hp and with out an eni's heals is toast! Makum bah on the other hand can operate independently of an eni and only really requires the ap from ally for two sac doll summons a turn. Klor ofil needs a team to back her up makum bah doesn't as she can do enough damage and has enough hp to be the team!

13 twice is 26 meaning a team of two makum bahs and ally has 37 total hp! What's worse is each member of that team can heal themselves each turn! While a team with two klor ofils can only sap a total of two mp and ap while having over 20 hp depending on the figures and if the eni should fall is doomed to certain defeat barring a miracle


posté December 22, 2012, 04:35:12 | #8
No point healing yourself if you lose cause your enemy collects all the coins and wins by buying GG

a Madoll takes 1 ap and 1 mp, so in the end you can only summon 1 sac doll to kill the madoll and do no damage at all to the klor ofils. Unless you leave the madolls alive which leaves you in an even worse situation as the klor ofils are free to mp rape you next turn with their spells + madoll making you immobile.


posté December 23, 2012, 03:37:15 | #9

Quote (Chrolo @ 22 December 2012 04:35) *
No point healing yourself if you lose cause your enemy collects all the coins and wins by buying GG

a Madoll takes 1 ap and 1 mp, so in the end you can only summon 1 sac doll to kill the madoll and do no damage at all to the klor ofils. Unless you leave the madolls alive which leaves you in an even worse situation as the klor ofils are free to mp rape you next turn with their spells + madoll making you immobile.
Nope you just kill the madoll with ally leaving makum bah free to deal damage! I just had a match in which klor ofil was knocked out and I still won! Again klor ofil is not even half the threat makum bah is since each klor ofil can summon only one madoll because of the ap/mp rape.

Yet makum bah can summon two sac dolls a turn as long as the two previous have perished! And even with her mani bramble taking an mp you'd still have to focus both madolls one a specific opposing figurine to make the madoll anymore than an annoyance. Then there's the fact that two ap loss will still leave most figurines able to attack at least once depending on their total ap and ap costs of their spells

Not much of a punch no matter how you slice it. Yet four sac dolls are capable of dealing a total of 16 damage to either one figurine or spread out over two figurines. Yes the enemy can win by buying gg but that can be the case with any team make up so that point is neither here nor there

However the madoll will disappear if klor ofil is knocked out and with her 7 hp that is possible to do. But with makum bah's 13 hp and ability to cast the sylvan power every turn for just 2 ap it's much harder to knock her out of the game than klor ofil.

Which makes the madoll nothing more than an annoying fly to be swatted. While the sac doll is like a hornet or what I call "winged terrors" only the have half the mp of the madoll but pack a potentially deadly sting!


posté December 23, 2012, 07:41:31 | #10
You know Ally is slower than Makum Bah right? and her attack does 1 damage and Madolls have 2 hp.


posté December 25, 2012, 16:43:24 | #11

Quote (Chrolo @ 23 December 2012 07:41) *
You know Ally is slower than Makum Bah right? and her attack does 1 damage and Madolls have 2 hp.
Actually she's not they both have 3mp I have both figurines so I know! Also I've used ally to kill a madoll her attack with just one crit can do 2hp of damage so that's inaccurate! What's more is any figurine can kill the madoll heck if you're using the starter set bill tell can do it in one shot!

So why you're trying to make klor ofil out to be some juggernaut I can only imagine. Compare makum bah to klor ofil and you'll see klor ofil is no where near as strong as makum bah not even by three long shots! The only figurines the madoll will stop from attacking are klor ofil, makum bah, and ally at least those are the ones I know of for certain.

Makum bah has too much going for her not to be over powered! Klor ofil doesn't if you really believe klor ofil is some how stronger than makum bah you're either using her and want to keep her over powered, kidding yourself, or have never faced a team with makum bah on it. If you really want to see how strong makum bah is challenge someone with two makum bahs on their team and then some one with two klor ofils and then come back and share the results!

I have klor ofil on my team and even when she gets knocked out it doesn't affect my game why? She isn't now nor was ever that strong so losing her isn't that big a deal. She's basically only there for the -mp with manifold or the occasional madoll summon.


This post has been edited by danan - December 25, 2012, 16:51:53.
posté December 27, 2012, 20:48:50 | #12
Man my team has a Makum Bah and i'm using her with Ally, so i know exactly what i'm talking about.

Makum Bah's initiative is faster than Ally so if a Madoll is blocking you, you have to either kill it or risk dodging and even if you dodge run around it, so you wont run far as you will at least have -1 mp from madoll.

How do you ever plan to catch up a team of klor ofils? They will just win by GG while you are stuck somewhere running around madolls, getting a occational lock, cause you refuse to kill them with your makum bahs.

I wasnt talking about the figurines strengh. More like a 2 Makum Bah team vs a 2 Klor Ofil team, which will result in a lose for the Makum Bah team easily.


posté December 28, 2012, 12:29:47 | #13

Quote (Chrolo @ 27 December 2012 20:48) *
Man my team has a Makum Bah and i'm using her with Ally, so i know exactly what i'm talking about.

Makum Bah's initiative is faster than Ally so if a Madoll is blocking you, you have to either kill it or risk dodging and even if you dodge run around it, so you wont run far as you will at least have -1 mp from madoll.

How do you ever plan to catch up a team of klor ofils? They will just win by GG while you are stuck somewhere running around madolls, getting a occational lock, cause you refuse to kill them with your makum bahs.

I wasnt talking about the figurines strengh. More like a 2 Makum Bah team vs a 2 Klor Ofil team, which will result in a lose for the Makum Bah team easily.
Exactly what I thought you're using her and know how strong she is and want to keep her that way.
As for dealing with klor ofil when using a team of four or more figurines depending on your team make up. You'll have three other figurines to kill klor ofil with!

So she will not just be running around free to collect kamas with out being attacked!! So one figure being harrased by two madolls isn't really that big a deal. Since three or more other figurines will be free to attack!

Klor ofil is annoying with the -mp from manifold bramble and the madoll nothing more. As I've said I've won fights after klor ofil was knocked out! Proving she isn't some unstoppable juggernaut that should be feared!

Once she takes damage klor ofil falls quite easily heck my boo ming was down to 1 hp and survived long enough for me to win the match though he was under heavy fire constantly!! Ally might have lower initiative but that makes no difference as the ap from ally doesn't benefit klor ofil anyway!!

However it does Makum bah as you're well aware making 2x makum bah and ally a team to be reckoned with!

Makum bah does more damage with poisonous tear than klor ofil does with manifold bramble, Her summons does more damage than manifold bramble, has 6 more hp than klor ofil, and can heal herself in exchange for her mp and ap!!

So just stop with the Klor ofil is stronger than Makum bah balony because she isn't now nor will she be as long as Makum bah remains in her current state. Not really all someone would need to do is slow the madolls down! That's it just slow them down allowing Makum bah time to attack either klor ofil or the dolls.

Or for that matter just send 1 sac doll after the madoll. Klor ofil can only have one on the game board at a time so four sac dolls could easily kill the madoll and attack a figure in the same turn! So how you figure the two makum bah team would easily lose I've no idea


This post has been edited by danan - December 28, 2012, 12:32:56.
posté December 28, 2012, 22:16:03 | #14
i need a tl;dr after the first sentence. Well i pretty much quit playing Krosmaster since the last challenge so i dont really care about Makum Bah nerf.

Only played like 3 games recently and used a completely different team in every of them. There will always be people complaining about figurines like you, because they dont care to counter them correctly. Its the same in Dofus and Wakfu. Blabla this class too strong nerf plz. Blabla this class OP. Blabla

And as you said a few posts earlier. 2 Makum Bah + 1 Ally is too OP. Then i came and said 2 Klor Ofils stop them on their tracks and, we have this discussion since then. I never said Klor Ofils are stronger on the own. I only said Makum Bah gets countered hard by Klor Ofils.


posté December 29, 2012, 08:19:17 | #15
This the wrong direction of justification.
According to you, the "OP team" is not OP, because you can counter it with OP-team#2. And if anyone complains about OP-team#2, there is OP-Team#3! But what i have to do with other figurines besides sadidas and cras? What to do with melee figurines, that cannot chase cra or sadida?

The arena map is somewhat cruel to melee characters. There is nowhere to hide in the middle of the map. Cra can always get LoS (line of sight). And if there is no LoS, you can always cas AoE spell.


posté December 29, 2012, 08:24:56 | #16

Quote (Chrolo @ 28 December 2012 22:16) *
i need a tl;dr after the first sentence. Well i pretty much quit playing Krosmaster since the last challenge so i dont really care about Makum Bah nerf.

Only played like 3 games recently and used a completely different team in every of them. There will always be people complaining about figurines like you, because they dont care to counter them correctly. Its the same in Dofus and Wakfu. Blabla this class too strong nerf plz. Blabla this class OP. Blabla

And as you said a few posts earlier. 2 Makum Bah + 1 Ally is too OP. Then i came and said 2 Klor Ofils stop them on their tracks and, we have this discussion since then. I never said Klor Ofils are stronger on the own. I only said Makum Bah gets countered hard by Klor Ofils.
Now you're just making baseless assumptions. Fact is I've been thinking of a way to counter them ever since I fought a team of two makum bahs and ally so your assumption is wrong! However what you must realize is what ever strategy you decide to use must do two things in order to be viable. One stop or slow down makum bah from spamming the sac doll and two allow you to still be able to attack while slowing or stopping her dolls!

If it only does one of the two it will not work. The loss of two ap will not stop Makum bah from summoning the sac doll. But losing just one will stop Klor ofil from summoning the madoll! So one attack from Nox and she'd not be able to do more than manifold bramble! And that's only if one attack does no damage as he can attack twice a turn! So if she loses two then Klor ofil can't do anything but move!!

The only way what you're saying would have a chance of working is if Makum bah is the opponents main attacking force! If she is not then it would not matter how many mp or ap she loses since she would just be an option for attacking. So if some one used her as an option for attacking it'd be pointless to mp rape her because the opponent would just switch to a different tactic one that doesn't utilize her as an offensive weapon!


This post has been edited by danan - December 29, 2012, 08:44:46.
posté December 29, 2012, 17:20:36 | #17
Man you already said its a 2 Makum Bah 1 Ally team. How is Makum Bah not the enemies main attacking force?

Also even if Makum Bah is not his main attacking force. 1 Makum Bah = 2 Klor Ofil in terms of cost. So if your 2 Klor Ofils are stopping the enemies Makum Bah you both have chars left worth 8 levels. It would be even ground.

And you are wrong again. Klor Ofils Madoll is 4 ap and Bramble 5, so no 1 ap rape wont stop them from summoning.

Try a summon based team vs Makum Bah and see how they get completely blocked.


Quote
This the wrong direction of justification.
According to you, the "OP team" is not OP, because you can counter it with OP-team#2. And if anyone complains about OP-team#2, there is OP-Team#3! But what i have to do with other figurines besides sadidas and cras? What to do with melee figurines, that cannot chase cra or sadida?

The arena map is somewhat cruel to melee characters. There is nowhere to hide in the middle of the map. Cra can always get LoS (line of sight). And if there is no LoS, you can always cas AoE spell.

Sorry but there will always be a OP team. Even if we nerf both sadis now people will complain about other characters. It's impossible to balance this with so many different figurines


This post has been edited by Chrolo - December 29, 2012, 17:21:08.
posté December 30, 2012, 11:43:41 | #18

Quote (Chrolo @ 29 December 2012 17:20) *
Man you already said its a 2 Makum Bah 1 Ally team. How is Makum Bah not the enemies main attacking force?

Also even if Makum Bah is not his main attacking force. 1 Makum Bah = 2 Klor Ofil in terms of cost. So if your 2 Klor Ofils are stopping the enemies Makum Bah you both have chars left worth 8 levels. It would be even ground.

And you are wrong again. Klor Ofils Madoll is 4 ap and Bramble 5, so no 1 ap rape wont stop them from summoning.

Try a summon based team vs Makum Bah and see how they get completely blocked.


Quote
This the wrong direction of justification.
According to you, the "OP team" is not OP, because you can counter it with OP-team#2. And if anyone complains about OP-team#2, there is OP-Team#3! But what i have to do with other figurines besides sadidas and cras? What to do with melee figurines, that cannot chase cra or sadida?

The arena map is somewhat cruel to melee characters. There is nowhere to hide in the middle of the map. Cra can always get LoS (line of sight). And if there is no LoS, you can always cas AoE spell.

Sorry but there will always be a OP team. Even if we nerf both sadis now people will complain about other characters. It's impossible to balance this with so many different figurines
Ok she could still summon the madoll but that's it. Oh and if someone only has one makum bah on their team then she could not possibly be their main attacker since she while being able to do great damage can't beat four or more figurines herself.

Not only that you will not always face the makum bah, makum bah, ally team! So you have to assume their will be other figures to worry about! Then there's the fact that someone could purposely allow you to believe your strategy worked and lul you into a false sense of security!

When playing against another human opponent you must believe that they are intelligent and have a back up plan for use if needed. You can't simply think you'll outsmart them %100 of the time it simply does not happen. So just because a strategy worked on one opponent doesn't mean it'll work all the time.

That maybe but when compared side by side Makum bah has advantages over many other figurines
due to her high hp, self heal, and summon that does terrific damage and can be summoned twice in a turn every turn if she has 8 ap making her over powered!

The main reason is this once they are cast the sac doll is like the opponent gaining two to four extra figurines every other turn or every turn should the sac doll be killed or serve it's purpose. So a four on four match can become a potential eight on four match! Which is unbalanced heavily against the team with out Makum bah on it!

The same for the gobbal king and queen of tofus only they can not self heal. So you can knock them out of a match!


posté December 30, 2012, 16:18:13 | #19
I dont know about you, but how about if you ignore Makum Bah and hit the other chars?

Her sac dolls does up to 4 damage. Without Ally she can only do it once too. Even a Bill Tell has the ability to do 4 damage. It may be a bit harder for him because of 2 damage instances but it is still possible.

If she has Ally with her then 1 Klor Ofil makes her only summon 1 Sac doll again. That's a level 2 figurine gimping your level 8 combo.

Sure the team with the Makum Bah can change their tactics, but who said the other team cant? Focus on his other chars instead of Makum Bah.

My Argon Gass can heal himself, has constant Armour, and does up to 9 damage armour piercing with crit and preparation. Oh it's no line of sight too. Why dont you scream OP at him?


posté December 31, 2012, 02:45:09 | #20

Quote (Chrolo @ 30 December 2012 16:18) *
I dont know about you, but how about if you ignore Makum Bah and hit the other chars?

Her sac dolls does up to 4 damage. Without Ally she can only do it once too. Even a Bill Tell has the ability to do 4 damage. It may be a bit harder for him because of 2 damage instances but it is still possible.

If she has Ally with her then 1 Klor Ofil makes her only summon 1 Sac doll again. That's a level 2 figurine gimping your level 8 combo.

Sure the team with the Makum Bah can change their tactics, but who said the other team cant? Focus on his other chars instead of Makum Bah.

My Argon Gass can heal himself, has constant Armour, and does up to 9 damage armour piercing with crit and preparation. Oh it's no line of sight too. Why dont you scream OP at him?
I faced him once maybe twice and while he's strong he doesn't have a summons that does 4 damage as well as being able to be summoned twice provided he's 8 ap. So while being tough or even bad arse I still would not call him over powered due to what he lacks!

For a figurine that has a powerful attack in poisonous tear, high hp, and a summons that does nice damage Makum bah does not need a self heal spell on top of all that! I mean 13 hp is enough for her to survive with just the heals from an eni alone her having the sylvan power is over kill!

As for ignoring her that's just stupid as her summons are too dangerous! Any figurine that has 13 hit points, a self heal spell, a summons that does nice damage, and can still be healed by an enrispa is simply over powered.

Now as for Argon if his heals come from his attacks then those are fine. Since they do more than simply heal the damage he takes and inflicts it as well! Those heals are necessary as part of the attack and can be over looked. The sylvan power is a dedicated heal spell it does no damage making it unecessary for her to have since she can also be healed by an eni too!

Making it too easy to heal her back up to her full 13 hp and basically immortal since you will be hard pressed to knock her out with out the luck of rolling two crits with figurines with hard hitting spells


This post has been edited by danan - December 31, 2012, 03:03:53.
Reason for edit : Had more to add
posté December 31, 2012, 03:40:42 | #21
Anyone looking for an answer to Makum Bah should check out Luk Ylook, the 2 point cra. Two square knockback does hilarious things to sac dolls.

Well run Klor Ofil on the other hand is usually gonna be a pain far out of proportion to her point value. Well provided she has decent allies. Certainly isn't a one man band of a figurine like Makum Bah.

I think they are both a touch too useful for their point cost, but Klor Ofil more than Makum Bah.


This post has been edited by Eraniverse - December 31, 2012, 03:54:57.